>
> In message <199610242300.RAA06836_at_deck.metacard.com>, you wrote:
>
> >PS: I've just discovered another interesting problem with fvwm that is
> >just more evidence that most people using it are not using real GUI
> >applications very much: it doesn't even enforce modal dialog behavior!
> >Both mwm and olwm have properties that an application sets to indicate
> >that a window is a modal dialog (e.g., an error message) and the user
> >must respond to that dialog before continuing to work with the main
> >window. MetaCard sets both sets of properties, and fvwm is apparently
> >not honoring either of them...
>
> Robert Nation made this a compile-time option in fvwm 1.x. I believe the
> preprocessor macro he chose was -DMODALITY_IS_EVIL.
Correct, but this is not enabled in the default build, and yet fvwm
still doesn't honor the Motif-standard properties.
> Modality is a feature that can almost always be avoided by better programming.
And *almost* is the crucial word here. Some conditions just have to
be dealt with this way. Unless you can honestly say that it's *never*
required, then fvwm is broken.
> See 6A (O'Reilly's _Motif Programming Manual_), any other decent Motif
> programing book, the Motif newsgroups, and the Motif FAQ for more information.
>
> Here's an excerpt from _The Motif Style Guide_, written by the Open Software
> Foundation:
(snip)
And here's a quote from IBM's CUA guide (which is what the Motif and
MS-Windows style guides are based on), page 9:
Some types of modes are recommended by the user interface. They are:
Modal Dialogs
Sometimes needs information to continue, such as the name of a file
into which the users want to save something. When an error occurs,
users may be required to perform an action before they continue their
task.
And while we're on the subject, the Motif style guide specifically
states the explicit focus is the default (Section 2.1). Apparently
what it says is good enough for your argument, but not good enough for
those who insist the fvwm default be different than the mwm and olwm
defaults.
> When I started out with Motif, I thought modality was the best thing since
> sliced bread, because I could be lazy. After more experience, however, I
> learned my lesson. Modality sucks. You should never force the user to only be
> able to use one window. If you'd like some concrete examples, I have many (as
> I was a full-time Motif programmer over the summer).
I agree that modality should be avoided whenever possible. But this
is not a good reason for having fvwm not honor the request. After
all, presumably the application developer knows what he or she is
doing, and it's not fvwm's place to prevent them from doing it. The
result may be loss of data and very unhappy campers.
> Don't tell me I'm not using real GUI applications much; don't even tell me I'm
> not a GUI programmer. Are you looking to be flamed accusing people on a window
> manager mailing list of not using "real" GUI applications? Your words reveal
> to me at least that you don't even know what "real" GUI applications are.
If you'll take a look at some "real" GUI applications, such as
Netscape, most of the CDE tools, and MetaCard, you'll see that they do
use modal dialogs. My hunch is that you can cause program crashes and
possibly even data loss with most of these if you intentionally poke
in the main window with fvwm not honoring the applications modality
requirements. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to never have to create a
modal dialog, but I daresay your reputation as a GUI programmer
wouldn't be done any great good if some application you released
crashed or caused data loss because the window manager didn't work
like it was supposed to.
As a commercial product vendor we have to deal with all levels of
users, and fvwm's lack of support for modality is going to cause them
(and us) problems.
Regards,
Scott
> --
> John GOTTS <jgotts_at_engin.umich.edu> http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~jgotts
> Senior, EE/Motif Programmer/SysAdmin/Linux Hacker/Amateur Radio Callsign N8QDW
>
--
***************************************************************
Scott Raney raney_at_metacard.com http://www.metacard.com
Tcl and ksh: syntactic gymnastics
MetaCard: it does what you think
--
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Received on Thu Oct 24 1996 - 21:43:58 BST